Curse

Stealthc · Feb 13, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Yet they're playing as blue so that would imply that they won the previous match.

jake jacobs · Feb 13, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

paragons are fun in HoH (para-spike ftw! zergway, meh) but i enjoy them in PvE as well. mind you tho, i have drifted away from PvE but paragons can run, they do a good bit of Buffage if u knoes wat to do. Still tho, i do enjoi me paragon less (in pve mind u). HA i just make a pve one, it takes too long to set up my stuffs, and also i can do w/e i want.

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y not?

ikpt · Feb 13, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Actually, his entire post is meaningless anyway since that all paragon team lost in HoH.
According to the other team in that screenshot (which I happen to be in the same alliance with), they are pretty sure they won that fight.

Actually, they didn't. They won the fight previous to that one, I'm pretty sure.

CagedinSanity · Feb 13, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Is there any point using Paragons anymore in PvE? It's been 3 back-to-back nerfs and no buffs of any significant whatsoever. Incoming is now 1...3 seconds, and flashes it's about to finish the moment it starts - it's not even funny anymore.

Edited by Dralspire: Please review our complaint procedure as specified in the forum rules.

I think people who think paragons are useless either
1) Are pathetic
2) Haven't played one
3) Just enjoy complaining about any nerfs they see EVER.

I have a spear paragon, and with like, 3 spear skills that add +40 damage (Which i think is very high for melee/ranged skills) so My paragon is far from useless.

VitisVinifera · Feb 13, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.

this is just ridiculous

Alfrond · Feb 13, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I think all the anger over the Paragon nerfs comes from a misunderstanding between the players and A-net over what the Paragon is supposed to be. From what I've read, the Paragon was supposed to be a support class. Acting as a kind of battle leader, they would stay out of the front lines, use their shouts and chants to benefit the party and support the primary dmg. dealers with their spears. I think this is what A-net intended.

However, people began using Paragons in different ways, like those full Paragon teams. This lead people to develop an interpretation of the Pargon that was very different from A-net's. Therefore, A-net balanced (or nerfed) the class to make it more like what they had intended. People continued to use the Paragon the same way. So A-net had to nerf them again, and again. Now, its looking like the Paragon is no longer good at what they were being used for. For many players, this makes it look like the Paragon is now useless, but thats not true. They are now just less usefull when being used in the ways A-net did not intend.

It looks like people will just need to start looking at the Paragon as a support character as it seems that's what A-net wants it to be, and what it should have been.

dargon · Feb 13, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.

this is just ridiculous

Changes != Nerf

They could just as easily decide that some of the previous changes went a little too far and buff them and/or other skills.

The Ernada · Feb 13, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I dont think Gaile meant that there are more Paragon nerfs coming, she was just giving an explaination for the last Paragon changes from the dev team. If you read her post again, she also mentioned why Grenth's Avatar was nerfed. I doubt that another nerf to either Grenth or Paragon is coming...those were just explainations in an attempt to cool the masses of whiners.

CDittric77 · Feb 13, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

And given the state of this thread it's probably a good thing she did

Lord Feathers · Feb 13, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

what I constantly see is skills being changed to reflect what happens on the P vs P side of the map. Honestly it seems like the nerfs there are to keep that lot happy. I can still play an effective paragon in P vs E and from the way changes abound I don't have the energy or even want to try any P vs P activities with having to constantly adjust this skill vs that skill. Something always goes to the top, a team build, new skill use, ect., and it will cause people to bitch and then they will nerf that as well, it's whats been done and continues to be done

FoxBat · Feb 14, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

It appears more nerfs are coming, according to gaile's post about upcoming changes.

That's an explanation of previous nerfs, not a promise of new ones. (Not that they promised they *won't* nerf either...)

CDittric77 · Feb 14, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Can we PLEASE close this thread? There's a dead horse being mutilated over in the corner!

erfweiss · Feb 14, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zedd Kun

Anet HAS to stop making support classes. Noone wants them, because noone knows what they are capable of. Someone think that all classes except monk are made for only damage dealing (stupid 12 years old wammos). I have a rit, and I have a hard time finding a group, because noone understant a rit, or the group already has a rit, and it's not wort bringing two.
Every group want one or more monks, warriors or eles.. But support classes.. Nah. There is no use for two in a group.

Have you ever thought some of us actually LIKE playing the support role? It's not neccessary to be the "Star player" all the time. I'll use a football analogy for you: The quarterback doesn't win a game without an offensive line.

It's very similar to GW in this aspect. The Paragon is a very viable support character. They are quite versatile (I have 9 different builds I rotate through). You can be a motivator, a command buffer, or even odd jobs like a Cautery signet / dazed removal at Abbadon (which no one ever seems to bring anything to remove that). In order for the team to survive, support roles need to fulfill their role. GFTE is a perfect example. With a minion master, the minions all get that benefit. That becomes lethal with 10 minions.

Personally, my paragon is one of my preferred characters to play (beat all three campaigns, capped all 15 paragon elites).

Shmanka · Feb 14, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by erfweiss

Have you ever thought some of us actually LIKE playing the support role? It's not neccessary to be the "Star player" all the time. I'll use a football analogy for you: The quarterback doesn't win a game without an offensive line.

Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.

If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role.

CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post.

wynoski · Feb 14, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.

If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role.

CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post.

please define support vs "Main" characters?

Is a monk a main character or a support character...what about an SS necros vs a BIP vs a MM? What about a fire ele, vs an earth ele with wards?

is an interupting ranger support or main? What about Mesmers?

In my short experience in this game, 1 or 2 tanks along with so 3-4 ranged attacks and 2 support people seem to get the job done...so the paragon staddles that role of a monk and a ranger...

I just wonder why everyone has to bash a certain class or create a bias..

my LEAST favorute class...warrior...just run in and hack away...little strategy for me, but I am sure I will get some comments about that...I would have said sin, but I could not get my sin off the noob island.

glountz · Feb 14, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynoski

my LEAST favorute class...warrior...just run in and hack away...little strategy for me, but I am sure I will get some comments about that...I would have said sin, but I could not get my sin off the noob island.

Yes you will have comments because you're obviously knowing little of the game to say such BS.
Warriors are one of the most difficult class to play properly. Must not overextend, and deal with warrior hate, apply pressure, and spike with cleverness. That's not "Hack'n'slash", sorry.
Don't post if you know you're giving the stick to be bait.
Paragons are dead for PVE, unless you team them together to bring back the so powerful synergy they have when they are numerous. Maybe it will happen, like it happened when rangers were rejected like plague, so they finished to make full ranger teams like trapper teams or barrage team in PVE or ranger spike team/ViM team in PvP and had surprisingly a lot of success.
Paragons were powerful batteries (Energising finale, Aria of Zeal). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were powerful protectors (Stand your ground, Incoming). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were powerful medics (Search skills on Guildiwiki.org). This role was nerfed.
Now, the only role left to them is Spear chucklers. Until it is nerfed, too.

wynoski · Feb 14, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

lol...that didn't take long...

I never said that Warriors were bad, I just said that it is my least favorite class...I know they are useful...my Necro runs in fear from them unless I have enfeeble...one blade of corruption has wiped out the entire back line in the gates of maddness mission...

my experience with a warrior was that I got to a certain point and I needed better armor and I did not want to farm/find collectors for it. I am sure my w/Me would still be around today if I had gottent he armor.

As far as warrior hate...let's talk about the AI for N/Mo...I run with a guildie that has a Necro usually with an Me secondary...he will be ignored while I spend half the fight running for my life...
Talk about some hate...

And if paragons are useless because you cannot have a full part of them anymore, well I guess you are correct...that smack to me of a gimmick build. Would you ever do PVE with 8 warriors? How about 8 monks, etc...seems silly to me, but then again, I do not usually PUG and like my henchies and heros, but I am probably one of those noobs that is ruining the game...

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Paragons were overpowered batteries (Energising finale, Aria of Zeal). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were overpowered protectors (Stand your ground, Incoming). This role was nerfed.
Paragons were overpowered medics (Search skills on Guildiwiki.org). This role was nerfed.

Shouts are not removable. They are not interruptable. Theres no real viable paragon shout counter (hexes are removable, well of silence requires a corpse)

Multiple paragons could alternate and keep up these powerful skills continuously, keeping up health and energy of their other party members.

Not to mention, these powerful skills are on a VERY survivable character who has very good DPS and pressure.

The role of battery, buff, and medic has previously fallen to CASTER characters. They are powerful but squishy. Why have a squishy when a hard target can do it better and it can't be removed?

The paragon basically had no real glaring weakness (other than direct healing, which of course a monk would cover, and the paragon would cover the monk). This is not fun in PvP.

hence my previous statement:

Quote:

Yes, the paragon has been taken down MANY pegs.

But thats because it was good. It was just SOOOO good. Now its on par with the crappiness of the rest of the classes ^_^

If you played a Paragon from the beginning and didn't expect a nerf, you are clearly delusional.

Really its the community thats KILLING the paragon.

He's been nerfed out of his previous PvP role of being a jack of all trades.

Does that make him useless? No. He's just not as good, and yes theres other viable classes to fulfill the various roles he can do, but not all in one package.

We are creating a social stigma that further undermines the efforts of the Anet's designers to want to create VARIETY in builds. Instead of coming up with new ideas, we are dumping it and declaring it dead.

Voila, death to variety, death to innovation, imagination and discrimation to all players who even remotely like said class.

The Paragon is still viable in PvE with a proper TEAM built to complement it. The Paragon is no longer a juggernaut in PvP.

Alfrond · Feb 14, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Thanks for the life lesson Oprah.

If you can't do math, there are more support then main characters at the moment. Not only that but I think you have the "wrong" definition of a support role.

CDittric77 is right, close this thread or more people like this are going to post.

I don't see why you took such offense at Shmanka's comments. They have just as much of a right to post their opinions as you do. None of the comments were even pointed at you, or insulting. It seems strange to me to want to close a thread because someone who disagreed with you posted. Lets try to keep things civil and respectful, shall we?

glountz · Feb 14, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The Paragon is still viable in PvE with a proper TEAM built to complement it. The Paragon is no longer a juggernaut in PvP.

Lyra, you don't say anything that I didn't say.

Yes paraway is still powerful. Yes team based around one or more paragon is very effective. But no a lone paragon can't suit correctly in any PuG, or even guild groups. You basically only suit a PVE paragon in a full hero team builded around this paragon, generally other ones plus warriors/rangers.
If I want to help my friend guildie who don't have morgan, is an elementalist, along another friend who is a monk and don't have or want to suit his entire setup for paraway, my paragon's is next to useless on his own, unless making him a non-Aoe damage dealer with anthem of flame.
So basically, a lone paragon without team setup is useless in PVE (as well as in PvP).
You think this is a good thing, as it forces people to suit the entire team and think a common strategy.
I think this is a bad thing, as it forces people to suit the entire team and think a common strategy, something you NEVER HAVE in PVE unless you group specifically for, say, Elite missions.
BTW, Yes paragons were overpowered, by the lack of counters (as you say - uniterruptable, unremovable). A-net should have incorporated more counters along each professions than 2 poor necro spells. Now they are okay in paraway team, but I challenge you to incorporate a single support paragon (paramedic; paraprot; parabattery) effectively in a team.